There are (3) key plays when playing the Pass Line – which Grafstein goes into detail on:
Progressive Betting – For handy reference I put this spreadsheet together for a double odds play – including how much odds to take, and bankroll required to start. To Download the PASS LINE PROGRESSION CLICK HERE – Pass Line
Qualified Shooter – Probably the best advice going…basically to wait until a shooter either rolls a Natural or makes his first point.
Use of Naturals – Parlay Naturals – the best bet on the table.
Let’s take each one and understand the significance of his plays and the impact on the game…
QUALIFIED SHOOTER:
“All Right bettors know the feeling of running into a string of missouts where one shooter after the other has failed to roll even a natural…let alone a pass line point. What we are doing is giving up the FIRST pass in hopes of hitting the balance of passes. I have found after more than 50 years as a crap game employee and as a crapshooter, it is to your advantage to accept what I tell you is good advice .. WAIT FOR A QUALIFIED SHOOTER.
My Comments – Critical. It is the best advice I can say I got from the book and always the hardest to follow. Some have other ways of determing how to avoid quick 7 outs – the five count, the 1 count, wait till he rolls 3 inside numbers…all the same in a general sense. For those that have won at craps – the way to win – is on one Train ride, one shooter. Get one shooter who rolls hot – and you make all your money. Grafstein is a progressive bettor – so you have to have one hot roll or hopefully more to get it back. You can`t afford to be at the table and bet on every shooter – the odds are just too weighed against you. So by waiting until they make one point – you are separating all those who can`t make a point (60%) a large percentage of the shooters – in hopes of getting someone who rolls 3x points. To me it`s the best way….
SENSIBLE PROGRESSIVE BETTING – Grafstein goes into detail on how trying to “Get the Money`means that the casino has to chase its losses, by having you increase each winning bet. Progressive Betting has it`s perks but in situations where the dice are choppy and no one has a decent shoot – you may face a small loss. The payoff is if you are there for a decent hand (5+ passes) then you are going to take home more money over a flat bettor. If all the shooters qualify on points – then only if you have a 5 pass hand do you see a better profit vs. a flat bettor. However, you gain an advantage because you`re not losing near as much by being patient (see qualified shooter) and you are putting more money on the line hoping to catch a run of naturals.
The trade off is if you can be there for both parlays and points made – it makes sense. The progression is really to capitalize on the hot rolls, and hopefully that one hot roll – that takes you past 6 points. Check out this spreadsheet to see a comparison of flat betting vs. progressive betting.
I`ve also included the difference in a shooter who flat bets vs. waiting for a qualified shooter – who makes his initial come out a Natural … so you`ll see profit after shooter 3 or 4.
Happy to say – I`m please with the progressive betting. Best run I ever had was a 10$ pass line bet growing to $350 with $700.00 in odds, the point was FIVE and I`ll never forget the roll.
In addition, several times I`ve bet my 6 and 8 up for 100$ and sometimes into the hundred`s of dollars…as high as $900.00.
I like high action, and with a limited bank roll – progressive betting gets me there.
The pass line chart (DOWNLOAD HERE) is worth memorizing and like I said it takes a decent shooter -but if one comes along … so will the dough!!!!
Finally is Parlaying the Naturals which I go over in another page.
I’ve included a sample spreadsheet of what your system looks like. One of the most important aspects of playing the Progressive way is banking – how you handle your chips at the table – where you put them, where you draw from to bankroll qualified shooters and finally where you take from to handle your own rolling.
Also a key is Grafstein Banking system while at the table.
Greatest Craps player of all time 
I read Sam g. book and instantly inproved my betting returns, last three trips I’ve had 500 dollar chips for first time. Waiting for qualified shooter is very good system, some times watching a shooter roll many numbers and not qualifling is a test of patience but in long run I have made MONEY
Thanks Paul, yes I like that aspect of the betting system but it can be very tough and as Sam stakes – DISCIPLINE is the house advantage. Wondering what other aspects of the book you liked? What level you play at? and if you also use either his place betting or come betting system.
The biggest and most important technic is waiting for qualified shooters, seen 6-8 shooter miss out in a row, that’s money saved and gives me more opportunity to wait for hot roll to come along.
Another aspect of Sam G book is being able to reread sections as desired, word of mouth advise from family or other shooters are soon forgotten.
The WINNING NUMBER place bet increase charts are helpful, before I didn”t have a set pattern to increase amounts.
I use the converted come bet quite a bit, though the STRETCH often also. increasing place bets by 50 to 100 percent depending on which number…as Sam G says in book.
My typical table buy-in is 200-300 dollars and start pass line is 5.00 bet/plus odds and up by 40 to 60 percent from there.
I get another chance to use Sam G ideas in two weeks…good news travels quick
Paul
Nice Paul – great stuff.
I agree with your commentary – I actually use this site as I am at the tables to keep track of my “press” action – on the 6/8 it’s memorized and the best run I had was starting a 6 at 12$ and running it to $900.00.
You should of seen the looks on the faces of the heavies at the table who maintained their bet size through the shoot. Meanwhile – I am raking it in and pressing without a care in the world.
The best part of having a strategy is that decision making is not part of my play. I focus on playing “by the book” even if that means waiting for a couple of shooters to miss out.
By eliminating guess work – and sticking to the strategy – I can play with abandon when a hot roller comes along – knowing that my press strategy is consistent and that to me is the absolute advantage when betting.
While some people end up making 100$ for a shooter – I my make $1000.00 because I don’t “hold back” and limit my winnings.
For those that haven’t got a “strategy” – this isn’t a system where its based on hocus pocus – there is life long lessons poured into that manuscript and worth the 20 bucks to pick up a copy.
I’m new to this site and am greatful for it. I have two questions, looking for your opinion, as I recently read the book and tested some things out. #1 if a shooter qualified and let’s say he was a productive roller for you. Do you have to re-qualify him every time the dice come back around to him? #2 I apparently misread about the converted come. I believe I was only supposed to have 2 up at most, but my particular dice set and controlled rolling had me hitting all box numbers repeatedly. I had several hot rolls and was up on many numbers, but I kept turning a profit and ended up ahead 6x my bankroll after 3 sessions. If my rolls continue this way, is it wrong to take advantage of more than 2 converted comes?
Thanks,
Tony
Tony,
First awesome and welcome to the site – I maintain two sites to make it easy for my wordpress friends to find me – but also have http://www.dicedoctor.info which publishes original posts – that are reposted here. So with that in mind – I am going to work through Converted Come Bets (I call them Hesitation Place Bets…for obvious reasons.) But let me directly address two excellent questions.
#1 YES you need to qualify the shooter with a WIN or NATURAL EVERY time. I think the word Qualified Shooter is a bit misleading. In a sense all of the progressive betting techniques are based on someone rolling more than TWO points and in order to do that they have to win at least once to qualify for my action. So in a sense they are Qualified but don’t qualify unless they qualify…lol. I kid. But yes they need to win once – because as Grafstein says – “the Dice have no memory”…regardless of past success.
A good example of this was recent Dice Setting Group – almost wiped out by the belief that everyone at the table was Qualified – when in a sense Patience was the key. The result was everyone bet on everyone “Aggressively” and we were almost all wiped out…again Qualified Shooting is a key in this regard.
#2 Converted Come Betting is a Place Betting System in Disguise. I call it “Hesitation Place Betting” which as the name suggests means you wait until the DICE tell you where to lay your money. So yes, according to Grafstein you need to Wait for a Qualified Shooter and have a Bankroll of THREE close to Equal size bets – meaning one PassLine and Two for Converted Come Betting. You are only supposed to have TWO Converted bets up at once.
So Congrats on your roll, and excellent news that you’ve focused on working the Grafstein. Trust me – since I’ve read and reread his book 100x – often I “Misread” and go back and learn the “proper” way he expects to play. I will say Converted Come can be challenging to play – because of various reasons, pressing, stop loss methods and what to do with what money in terms of taking odds, from what source, banking etc. These challenges often lead to problems because you take money from lock up when it should be from bank etc. So on that note – I do like to Simulate and play through methods at home before taking them live.
Ok, so back to your question. Is it wrong to take advantage of more than two converted come bets.
I don’t think WRONG is the word I’d use. I take it back to a poker analogy – where a guy jams A4 in a tournament and wins an all in against pocket tens – then goes around telling all his friends what a great play he made because in this ONE instance he wins. For the rest of his life he believes A4 is a winning hand and jams it every time – only to lose in the long run.
Your sample size is Three Sessions – I would argue that’s pretty small. I think if you continue to bet more than TWO converted come bets – no matter how good a Di shooter you are – that eventually the odds and House Vig against you will take and eat into your bank roll – so yes that’s WRONG.
Issue Two – your telling me your betting more than 2 converted come bets – but assuming you haven’t modified your bank roll requirements and money management based on that – Also wrong. Example would be you take 300$ to bet to the table – with $30.00 be bet on 10 qualified shooters. Now you up your bets to $50.00 but haven’t changed your bank roll requirements – issue!!!
“If my rolls continue” – so here is my advice – stick to the plan Tony – don’t get greedy – greed kills. You have Three Bet’s Working (out of Six) that’s pretty good…take a little of the gas and you’ll thank me in the long run.
Keep Rolling and as always – thanks for the question.
Tony, wanted to see how your craps play was progressing? Having you been using the Dice Doctor method of play?
Hello, this site is great and I’ve already had one of my questions answered by the posts. I have two questions for you:
#1 – If a shooter rolls craps before a natural on the come-out roll, does he/she still become considered qualified?
#2 – Starting at a $5 minimum bet on a come-out roll, a natural is rolled and then we parlay, making our pass line bet $10. A second natural is rolled and the parlay is complete. Do we go back down to $5 or up to $7 after the successful parlay?
Thanks in advance,
Brandon
Thanks Brandon, Great to have you visit the site – and thanks for the questions.
#1 the key is “Can the shooter make a point?” or Can the Shooter make a Natural…and the answer is YES! In this case, while the shooter started out with a Craps roll, we are trying to win on a shooter who makes several passes in a row – so the ability to make ONE – even though they initially crapped out – does Qualify them.
#2 After a successful parlay – and I assume your playing single odds – then YES you move to the next bet in your progression. If you were betting 2x Odds then the Parlay is complete after THREE WINS – in your case sounds like you are referring to a SINGLE odds progression.
Here is a video that illustrates me playing through 2x ODDS systems of play … https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArQAwyDuABfxdF9qRTlDT0xKV3p2cUlKMkI0LW9MYXc&usp=drive_web#gid=0 in addition check out my YOUTUBE video’s which outline SG’s method of play at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw5JTEVCraE
Hope that helps – and as always – thank you for the question – you can visit our official site at http://www.dicedoctor.info
To confirm, for single odds, the parlay is only 2x? Is it preferable to bet 2x Odds if you had a choice?
Great Question … I actually did a summary on one of my early posts via Excel on the difference…
Obviously Double pays more – but also “loses” more … so the variance goes up.
I think starting out single odds is more appropriate and it also depends on your level of tolerance for variance.
I’ll try and dig out the excel for you.
I hope you continue to play – look forward to an update on your use of the Dice Doctor…
Sat you’re at a table betting on a shooter he makes a few points then craps out and the dice move to next shooter. Can you stay in your spot if you’re waiting to qualify the next shooter? Are you required to bet?
Thanks for the question James. You stay at the table, and wait for the next qualified shooter – once that player makes a natural or a pass – you place a bet and start. You only leave the table after you complete 10 qualified shooters and take a loss…
Gotcha. So the dealer’s not gonna give you a bunch of bad looks or ask you to leave or anything if you wait on a shooter right? Just wanted to make sure there wasn’t an etiquette breach. Love the book btw.